Catabolic crisis fueled, by events, of disuse and disease. What are they are they something that we should all be preparing for consider the critical threshold of old age? Imagine you feel pressure to cross a busy intersection but your ability to do so on time false at a sink with your capacity to do. So cars are honking, you tell yourself. It's the last time you'll be doing that your gait speed, the speed at which you walk has become too slow. What started as a brief period of
Immobilization from your routine Hospital. Say, for the flu or a simple surgery has become something more, you've crossed the disability threshold. The result habit disruption, rather than going for your daily, walk you decide to stay home. And in that moment begins to decline the damn of daily habit that sustained your muscle. Although leaky from gradual sarcopenia has suddenly broken loose and the floodgates are
Loose propelling, you towards even greater atrophy and so-called catabolic crisis. These are the punctuated events of disuse and disease that may spell out a more precipitous Decline and they may be also as our guest today, suggests one way in which animal models of caloric restriction popular in the Aging Community have failed to account for in that small respect. I think today's guest may be the voice of the other.
Aside there is good news even the very old a non-asian Aryan or a person who is from 90 to 99 years old, who may lack the capacity for Meaningful improvements in muscle mass can experience large relative improvements in gait speed and strength through a few simple changes in habits in particular resistance exercise dr. Stuart Phillips, is a professor of kinesiology at McMaster University in Hamilton Ontario Canada, where he also serves as the Director.
You're up the physical activity center of excellence. His research centers on the rolls, exercise and nutrition. Play in influencing human skeletal muscle protein turnover, and how these lifestyle factors influence, body composition, especially as we age, he is in many ways. A legend for his contributions to understanding, how factors and signals influencing muscle protein synthesis ultimately culminate in hypertrophy. In other words, muscle growth in this episode,
We discuss the sort of misguided way in which the recommended dietary. Allowance was conceived and particularly how the protein are da. Might be far from optimal, especially from the standpoint of muscle protein synthesis. We talked about the notion of a sort of muscle Reserve, something that comes easier to build when we are younger rather than older and how it buffers us against a threshold of disability that defines catabolic crises like hospitalization, we talk about why protein.
Is unique from other macronutrients and how this influences, the patterns of intake and behavior that help us maximize muscle protein synthesis and ultimately build and preserve muscle. We talked about a somewhat disturbing alignment of circumstances that magnify the effects of age-related muscle loss at almost the exact moment at which the effects of antibiotic resistance set in where older adults become less responsive to larger single doses of protein.
Many people have also begun to concentrate their protein consumption into a single meal dinner. We talked about differing doses of protein, protein timing, and the anabolic window of resistance training and how much protein is needed for people in different life stages, or levels in types of activity. Ranging, from older adults to Elite athletes, we talked about how factors like protein quality, particularly leucine content influence the amount of protein needed to
More or less stimulate the exact same muscle protein synthesis response. But by far, one of my favorite parts of this conversation is the short foray into somewhat surprising factors outside of protein and resistance exercise that reduce catabolism or the breakdown of muscle namely things like omega-3. And even the heat stress response, a couple of quick things before we start the podcast. First of all, if you enjoy the podcast, if you
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Guest dr. Stuart Phillips. Dr. Phillips is the director of the physical activity. Center of excellence at McMaster University and our Ontario Canada, as we are going to learn today. He is, he is his research in his lab has made pretty big contributions to our understanding of muscle protein synthesis. And I'm pretty excited to dive into all that research. I've spent the last week reading,
You articles and studies crazy? Yes. So I mean now I feel like I've just learned a tremendous amount compared to me but I knew last week so I mean it's just excellent. So maybe we can just start off talking about muscle mass and and why, you know, we hear a lot. Oftentimes positioned almost. Everyone knows about body mass and body fat percentages and BMI is, and what's a healthy BMI and what's not and but you know, muscle mass.
Is also important so maybe we can talk about why
sure. Yeah I mean I think when you step on a scale everybody at least should realize that the sum of all of your body. So we say compartments is what you see on the scale and most people can appreciate. Obviously, they're worried about their body fat content, but a large part of what's registering on the scale, is actually what we call lean mass or some of it is muscle mass and then obviously your bone mass as well. So I think most people
Probably understand, we're about almost 70% by content water. And most of that water is inside ourselves and a lot of is inside muscle mass. So, what we call muscle mass or lean mass is very hydrated, tissue fat mass is actually not and it's preservation muscle mass. At least as we get older is critical for health. I think it's one of the things that's lost on a lot of people to say, well, that's great, that you're maintaining your body weight. But if we don't maintain our muscle mass,
Is it has some pretty deleterious consequences
and muscle mass correlates? I mean specifically with with mortality, right? I mean there's an inverse correlation.
Absolutely. I mean I think that the outward manifestation of muscle mass is obviously you know our ability to move around strength getting up out of a chair that sort of thing and at some stage in our life you're going to have to be able to do these sort of rudimentary activities of daily living. And once you can't do them, then you know, you need somebody to care for you. So
It's not surprising that there are as you say, correlations between muscle mass and mortality. It's vitally important organ. If you look at it that way,
I think the Frailty index which is there's a lot of measures that go into that. You know and Frailty indexes as you get older at least over 65. It's a pretty good predictor of mortality. Yeah. And and muscle mass is a important component of the bed my right?
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean I think all of these definitions you say Frailty? I mean the
Sir would be sarcopenia or loss of muscle mass. As we age all have a component of measuring lean mass or muscle mass and its predictive of a downward decline as we get older for sure.
I've seen some studies that have that have also correlated specifically lower body, I think strength of lower body with improved cognition. And I was wondering just for me. I'm I I don't like why not upper body while
Lower body like do you think there's is there a you know potential like people that are also doing cardio or getting some lower body strength and do you have any idea? Yeah I'm not
sure. I can answer the question but it's interesting to note you some of these squirrel ations come up and the you know, when it's a correlation obviously it's Association and people want to know, you know, is it causative right? And you so you always kind of hedge your bets and what I say to people I said I don't know but it's not a bad goal to aim for to have stronger legs.
And be able to move around. And if it correlates with, you know, improved cognition and mental function as you age, you know, if that's a connection between the two, it it's not a bad goal to aim for whether one causes the other I can't say. But yeah, I'll take it if it's a, if it's a causative relationship for sure what, what
percent of muscle mass do humans lose like per year? And when does that start like
Peony.
Yeah this this is the you know I would say sixty four thousand dollars. All that wouldn't get you much these days. Probably more question. I suppose most people will say that somewhere in your 30s or 40s you're beginning to lose muscle mass. My own personal opinion, is it somewhere probably closer to about 56 or thereabouts? But that's personal, but something, you know, probably for most people that you can see in their 40s.
And usually what we say on a population level, it's about a one percent loss of muscle mass per year, and about a one to three percent, drop in strength or power. So, the muscle mass decline is actually slower than we lose strength and strength. Is they say, is the outward, manifestation of muscle, but it must speak then to the quality of the muscle you have and your brain's ability to be able to talk to muscle and get you to do things. So as much as we can do to try and
Low that that would be beneficial as we get into our older age, for sure.
Yeah. And I definitely want to get into all that stuff. What you know, how we can counter sarcopenia and loss of muscle mass? Do you the building up of the muscle reserves? Now like that's something I've heard you talk about or, you know, it's, you know, it's something that's common knowledge to some degree. Yeah. What does that mean in like Italy is it you know really important to do that before?
For a certain age and if you don't do that, can you still start later in life?
Yeah. Yeah. Great question. I mean, I think the parallel that most people are most familiar with that we can sort of pick on and say, you know, women in particular are told that we can, we can build bone mass up until probably about 30 men. It's about the same that when women had towards the menopausal transition that they're definitely going to lose bone mass, you want to start at a higher level as
Possible. I mean, everybody after the menopausal transition losses Boehner to boat the same rate, so you really would like to be on a higher Plateau. Before you get there, I think the concept is entirely similar with muscle. The good news is that probably even past your thirties into your 40s. 60s, probably even into your 70s. We can still gain a little bit of muscle. We can definitely gain strength by concerted, you know, resistance exercise. Usually, so you probably have a much bigger.
Window to accumulate the muscle that you have, but it's the same concept you'd like to go into older age when you're beginning to lose muscle at a higher level because then you're starting the decline from a, from a higher Plateau. So it's a similar concept. I don't know that we know exactly how much and when but there are even studies in nonagenarian, you know, people in their 90's lifting weights and they can get stronger than now, gaining muscle. Not so much but they
They get function back. So there's some adaptability left in the system in a muscle sense that isn't there in, with bones, for
example. And at the end of the day, as you were mentioning, you know, being able to get up out of your chair and like these. These sorts of important little like, everyday activities that we take for granted when were younger, can make a difference when you're older and you like, fall and break a hip and then you kind of don't go into this downward spiral. Yeah. So strength
Does make a difference with that, right? Like just having even if you're not gaining muscle mass, like being able to have the strength to
do that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that that's maybe a little bit over state of the importance of muscle mass. Not that it's not important, but the function and the outcome. So the strength and the power is really the key Point, even something as simple as walking speed or we call normal gait speed. And you know, the example I like to give is to say, you know, you're standing in an intersection. The walk signal comes
On and there's a certain distance you've got across in a certain amount of time. So you need certain gait speed and if you know not that the motorist hopefully wouldn't stop. But you know, you're under pressure to make it across an intersection. Let's say it's important. And we know, you know, fully that once you get to a certain level of strength, your gait speed drops, it becomes more difficult to do activities of daily living and then you're looking at full-time. Institutionalized
care, right? Quality of life, young down,
And it kind of goes back to that. That that concept of, you know, improving Health span. Right. You know, basically being able to delay the onset of these age-related diseases and diseases that hit us later in life, you know, any possible way that we can absolutely if we don't necessarily live much much longer. But yeah, in some cases is delaying those diseases. You might get a year or two, right? I mean, yeah. And I
think it's, it's not right to say, but, you know, everybody said, well, what's exercise? Going to give you and we do have an egg
It's observational data, of course that, you know, once you hit that sort of 150 minutes of moderate to vigorous, which are all okay. That's the guidelines. And I think, you know, you maintain your strength and so make sure you do those two days of strengthening exercises a week, we get our to say, we get on average, when you look at, you know, population data, but for extra years of life. So I think most people would take that if that were a pill, we are, you know, I wouldn't be sitting here, I'd be Skyping in from
Tahiti or something. And most people obviously realized, then that your health span that's associated with that has longer as well. So it's, it's time in your life that's longer, but it's time in your life that is spent in good health and for most people, that's a better quality of
life. Absolutely. So let's talk about some of the major signals and inputs that regulate muscle protein synthesis your which. Yeah. Yes, we can talk about how much
Correlates with muscle mass and strength. So you've published I mean, let's talk. Let's first talk about recommended daily allowances for protein intake for adult. Yep. In the United States and Canada, it's about 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram, body weight, correct. And yep, and I don't know what people are. Actually consuming, maybe you can shed some light onto that what they're actually consuming but also like what your, I know you have thoughts because you've published them on whether or not
It's scientifically sound that number
specifically. Yeah. So I mean one of the things the precursor like to start off with is to say people say, you know, how is protein different than everything else that we eat and what does it do? And so I often explain to people that carbohydrates and fats, that's fuel your body. You'd put that in and you burn it or we store it. Fortunately really good at doing that. But protein is something that when you ingest it, your body has to use it and it
There's not like a little sort of place that you can store away, the building blocks of protein, which are amino acids and kind of use them for later, although, your muscle is sort of a reservoir of that. So, it does turn over a little bit. And then, so when we think about it from a daily recommended intake, or what we call the recommended dietary allowance, it's the amount of protein that you need to ingest to replace all of the protein and amino acids that your body loses and most of it is lost in urine as urea.
And I say to people is, I've stopped trying to fight too much against this because I would actually be happy if they just change the name from recommended dietary allowance to minimal dietary intake. So first, I don't think it should be recommended because it's too low and I think you should be allowed to eat more. So .8, I think is to me that's the sort of bottom level by in. That's the that's where you need to start and then build up from there. So, most of the data,
We have, and it's not ours, there's lots of other people have contributed to this as well. Suggest. That a minimum might be closer to about 1.2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day and you know, athletes and even older people could probably benefit even from going up from that level up to a 1.6. At a certain point. I don't think you can put too much protein back into the system and the system would hang on to it. So every species has evolved a way of getting rid of
Of extra protein fish. It's ammonia words. It's uric acid. Mammals its urea. So, there's an upper limit, but most people depending on what surveys, you look at when they're younger and even middle-aged are probably doing okay, in terms of protein. So I'll, you know, hook hand on heart and say, probably not a big issue when you get a little older. People's appetite goes down, people tend to gravitate towards different ways of eating and protein actually becomes a much
Our percentage of their diet. So at the time when I think you need more protein and you want to support muscle mass and lean mass, as you as you age, most people's protein intake is actually going down to levels where it becomes limiting to the amount of muscle they can hang on to so that I think is an important sort of distinction between let's say meet the minimum. And let's go into what we call a more optimal protein, intake range and
I don't know where and at what age that begins but I think it's an important consideration. As most of us, myself included transition towards. You know I'm looking at the rest of my life and thinking I want to be in his bed as best health as I can. And so I have to be a little bit more cognizant about the protein that
I
What? What goes? What went into your determining. 1.2 grams per kilogram body weight, so I think most young adults are consuming that probably. And, and then also like, you know, I guess, you know, talking about the audience, like, are we talking about, like, two people that are in, you know, a big caloric excess. Well, they probably already getting that protein, right? I mean, like they're in a huge excess of, you know, getting eating more calories, are probably getting more protein and everything else. But
You know so like is this is it relevant for you know every age or maybe people that are really physically, I could like you said go up a little more. So why 1.2 what was the science behind? Yeah. So the original
studies that led to the derivation of the recommended dietary allowance or what we call nitrogen balance. And as the name implies, it's measuring all the nitrogen or protein that goes into our body and collecting everything that comes out and so wonderful delightful studies to do those studies we've known for a long.
A long time are problematic because of incomplete collection, overestimation Etc of losses. So one of the things that we do know is that The Closer you get to your requirement, your body actually gets much more efficient at utilizing protein so and that's not really taken into account in the way people of modeled that data. So without you know, going too deep into the weeds. Let's just say that there are alternative approaches using stable isotopes.
It have consistently shown that people actually need when I say need to maintain the balance that we talk about higher intakes and so that's the one point two. So it's it's not that you know .8 really you know, does it for a lot of people we need to come up to 1.2 and then from 1.2 and above we're talking about optimal intakes. And I think the example, the one that people can maybe relate to a little bit is that up until probably
Probably about 20, 25 years ago, we aimed at a vitamin C and take the prevented scurvy. And that was good because who wants Kirby, right? But then we've done some science and, you know, not me. But obviously, lots of other people to show that intakes above the vitamin C and take the preventive scurvy were actually associated with health benefits. And so, we make that recommendation, we haven't done that for protein. We're still aiming at the prevention of deficiency as opposed to the
And of processes that are important and there's still a lot of people to push back against my viewpoints and you know I'll take the heat. I think what hasn't been considered is this maintenance of muscle and Mobility as we age that is in part driven by protein and take them in the other half is we can't get away without talking about exercise, right? So that's the other side of the equation,
right? Well, let's, let's talk a little bit about some of protein intake and you're talking about people getting pushback, you know, they're, you know,
There there definitely are animal studies that have looked at you know calorie restriction and protein restriction and its effect on how lab rodents live healthy they live and I just I think that as you and I have talked off-camera you know there's there's a lot of different types of people that are in different life stages. We've got obese people like sedentary that could
Probably benefit from calorie restriction. We've got young healthy active, Physically, Active people that are probably needing more protein intake. We've got the older people that are battling scarf sarcopenia, that probably need more protein intake and then we have the whole fasting communicate community. So I mean it's like I've had a lot of fasting experts on the deficit, you know? And I think, what, what needs to, what a better job. It needs to be done is basically just talking about the audience talking about, okay? Who are we speaking to here with this?
Pacific thing we're talking about because that's important. There's different people in different stages of life and then I think also with some of the protein restriction as well, very similar. And I've listened to some of the things that you've talked about if you know, extrapolating data from lab animals. Sure specifically on calorie restriction and dietary restriction protein, restriction to humans, maybe a little murky because of something called this disuse.
And disease. Yeah that humans are so susceptible to so can you talk a little bit about because it makes so much sense? Yeah, I
mean the writer statement I think and the disclaimer right at the start is this a tremendous amount of respect for the science of the people that do the studies around? Caloric restriction, protein, restriction, etcetera. Most of it is done, is you mentioned in lab animals? Mostly small rodents. So, usually mice or rats sometimes and you know, I think one of the
The things that's important to to point out is when we compare primates head-to-head. So this is in caloric restriction and arguably the most robust model of survival, extending lifespan, the data is actually conflicting, it's only been done obviously in two different locations. And so if you were a primate, you know, in one location, you did better than primates in the other but the net result was actually didn't extend lifespan. So that sort of makes you think, okay?
Maybe there's it's not as clear cut as you might think. Obviously small rodents. They're mammals. So the extrapolation to us is often done drug companies do it all the time. I understand. I think the thing that I focus on the most is around, there's a caged animal have that has a lives in a very controlled environment. And food is, you know, there is no fluctuation in food. It's sort of held it here or here because
it's given or taken away from the animal. So, you know, choice is taken away from the animal that human beings are notoriously. Sometimes great, sometimes not so much at making and, you know, the these animals aren't exposed to a lot of the same stressors. So one of the concepts that we and it was something in Reading good friend of mine, Doug, Patt, and Jones, who, sadly passed away really early in his life pointed out at these catabolic crisis.
That we have. And for him, it meant a period of hospitalization. And during this defense this event, the de facto treatment in hospital as you go into bed rest and we've known for years that you know, putting people in bed rest and you can ask any clinician. It's a bad situation, you're not using your muscles everything because you become instantly sedentary obviously and it would exacerbate a lot of other issues. If you went into the bed rest with type 2 diabetes,
Tease, you were overweight you etc, etc. So these events you can appreciate bed, rest, and a catabolic crisis. If you've got a hospital event is, yeah, that's going to be bad. I get that. So we sort of said, well dial it back a little bit, maybe you get flu, and you're an older person. You get some respect ettore distress, you go into hospital for a few days. You're on oxygen, but you're now you're fine to be.
From the hospital but you go home and convalesced for two weeks. So this is a disuse event relatively speaking but you're okay. But you sit around for two weeks and we think as you get older even those types of events are a disuse event that we think precipitates, an issue. And I was fond of saying that well, you know, this happens every year in while happens everywhere people get the flu and I said, but there's maybe a uniquely if not Canadian, but
northern us phenomenon that when it's freezing cold outside. You also as an older person, you don't go outside. You don't want to shovel your snow. You could slip. You could, you know, so and clinicians would say, yeah. But how often does that happen? Then covid comes along and I said happens a lot so I feel a little bit of indication. I said this is a relevant model and what happens is if you can imagine somebody's they're already going down because sarcopenia is happening when they have a
Use of been, they bend the curve dramatically. So there's an accelerated rate of muscle loss and what happens when you're younger, you go down, but you were able to bounce back up at some point and this is universally. I think understood by clinicians. Is that an older person that has that event? Like that is actually now on a different downward trajectory. So they've actually hopped, you know, they've accelerated the loss that they have with aging to a fairly large degree
The best you no way to explain it. To people is to say, you put somebody up in space because there's no gravity that's effectively disuse because you can't really generate any force with your muscles. And we know that you know six months or a year or spending up at the space station is about 10 to 15 years of skeletal and muscle aging and it's tough to get back. In fact, most of those astronauts I'd be willing to back don't get much of that back when they come even down to earth.
So that's the price. You pay for a little bit of weightlessness for about six months to a year.
Wow, yeah, that's incredible about the astronauts. But just speaking to like what you were saying with the disuse and disease, again, it makes a lot of sense because laboratory rodents are not really exposed to the other and these little sterile environment, you know. So, you know, I think, you know, again, at the end of the day, just to kind of get this, I think to make it clear to people listening here today. You know, I still
You think there are benefits to different types of intermittent fasting, for different people. And whether we're talking about someone that's obese and overweight, you know, being having a form of caloric deficit which can be achieved. A lot of ways including probably the best. I mean, like exercise. If exercise is probably the Cornerstone of Health span. Right? I mean like that's absolutely think we agree there but but also like there's different types of fasting. You know. There's a concept called restriction like we're just talking about but there's also just not eating two to three hours before bed. Sure. And that's something I think.
Most people can benefit from honestly because you're, you know, you're not as insulin sensitive later in the evening. And it's nice to have a period where you do have some rest. Yep. Digestion and everything. So, lots of types of fasting and you know that all gets lost. Again when we just kind of talked about it in this big umbrella, kind of kind of generalization. So I think we're going to talk a lot about protein here in muscle synthesis and but but, but to be honest, I think people that are overweight and obese, they have to start there like they
To like lose the weight. And you know there's ways to do that exercise and caloric restriction, both really effective but getting back and speaking to the diet are RDA for protein. It's funny because you mentioned the micronutrients, you mentioned vitamin C and I did my postdoc with Bruce Ames and I studied micronutrients and like so I've, you know, his his whole, you know, his whole shtick was rdas or like to prevent deficiency, you know, and that they're just not.
Yeah. Adequate you know so like vitamin D. Yeah it's on and alright. And so I'm very familiar with that. Where it's like, well look, yeah. Who wants to like preventing scurvy is one thing but like, you know, not having DNA damage that's accumulating over time. That's going to lead to mutations lead to cancer. Well, that's important. So maybe we should be thinking really big TV, right? Yeah. So it's kind of like the same concept exactly with respect to to the, to the 1.2 grams of protein per day. You talk, I'm
Let's talk a little bit more about like specifics with people that are physically active. So you mentioned 1.6. Now, there was a study that I think it was a meta-analysis that your group that you guys looked at resistance exercise, in younger adults younger than 65 and adults older than 65. Yeah. And their protein intake. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about like you looked at lean body mass and what what was found there? What were the major
findings? Yeah, I mean, you know, so I think it's fair to say that our lab
Bob has contributed to maybe some of the overstatement of the importance of protein for for muscle mass and I'll, you know, throw my hands up and say, okay, some early studies that we did particularly where we were measuring rates of muscle protein synthesis. Is he sort of saw these enormous changes with protein? And everybody was like, see, it's important and I'm like, absolutely, you begin to accumulate evidence. You begin to accumulate longer-term trials where people are fed higher versus lower protein intakes.
And the data looks sort of promising but the more trials you get it sort of the effect tends to come become a little bit smaller, a Nuance. Let's say so I think that it's important that 1.2 is still the the basal level. That's the buy-in. I think 1.6 grams per kilo. So, I know. And I know people like to talk and pound. So, you know, it's something around sort of .6 2.7 grams per pound and those
After that, you can digest and eat lots more protein, your body just can't use it. But if you're physically active younger person, we refer to protein turnover and the concept. I think that's easiest is to say, you know, your muscle, or your proteins in your body or like a brick wall. The amino acids are the bricks going in protein synthesis is the bricks going into the wall, but at the other end, there's a process of bricks. You know, bad bricks damage bricks, old worn-out bricks being taken out of the wall. So we're turning
Ting protein over constantly. And if you're performing exercise and you're going out, doesn't matter. If you're running or lifting weights, then that protein. Turnover process is accelerated. So you have to put more bricks into the pool, to replace the ones that are coming out. Sounds like a really inefficient process but you can imagine if you did that every day to the walls around your house they'd be in great shape. So it's a good thing. I think as you get older, what happens is that the bricks that are coming in, aren't you?
Use this efficiently but we're still pulling bricks out of the wall and that sort of tips the balance in we begin to lose muscle mass. If you go into bed rest we tip that in the opposite direction and a really severe way and you know most people have experienced and we use this as an experimental model. A period, you put a cast on your leg or your arm. You take the cast off and then you look and say like where did my leg or my arm go while that's local muscular, atrophy, but you
When you're young, most people ask her, why don't we do rehab for young kids. If they fall out of a tree and break their arm, the answer is we don't have to because kids just go back and keep doing and playing, and they, that's their rehab. I was, as we get older, we don't tend to do that. So, we need active rehab and I think that's then the period where you need to put more protein back into this system to try and restore that. It just becomes ridiculously difficult as you get older. So young people.
Paul Physically Active. I'm an advocate for higher protein in takes. I would agree that most of them if they're particularly eating to cover their energy needs and consuming a mixed diet, they're probably good middle-aged people and I'll be the first person to admit this or probably not the first. We don't have a lot of data and people ask, why? And I'll give you the simple explanation we can conduct. Lots of studies on University campuses is academic, research institutions on
On young college aged people, there's lots of them around willing participants in research and we can conduct lots of research on people. Over the age of 65, is the meta-analysis sort of implies the people in the middle, they're busy people. They've got kids jobs, lots of things going on and we say, hey, you got to come into the lab for a whole day. You got to do this and they're like, my, I can't do that. So they're not studied often. I think the Assumption and it's
One is you can draw probably a line, you know, from Young to older people and the middle age people would be in the middle. So the meta-analysis was essentially that an attempt to reconcile, you know, we've got all of these studies. What does protein do for lean body mass? And the answer is if you're younger and you're resistance training. So you're lifting weights, you want to get a bit bigger, Bit, Stronger, 1.6 grams of protein per kilo per day was the, the type of intake that
You need to consume but the effect is small. So in other words I like to, you know, to put it practically. I say you get most of the benefit from just going to the gym and then the protein effect is a thin layer on top and it's the same story as you get a little bit older. The bad news, like a lot of things, although aging is great. You know, you're more wise, your everything else like that but things slow down. And so the protein begins to add
Only sort of smaller amounts. And so, it's a small nudge. You get a little bit of extra strength. You had a little bit of extra muscle, but it's really the, the lifting of the weights that is the Big Driver of all of the benefits and all of the gains. So, you know, simply put protein, is we talk about sufficient and necessary for a little bit of extra strength, but it's it's a small. It's a thin slice on top of what lifting weights provides a
in terms of strength
and muscle that makes sense. So the 1.2 is kind of going back to that
number. Yeah, you need you kind of need to start there and then you can move up but there's obviously there's a ceiling. Yeah, and you know, we could obviously have a discussion about, should it be 1.6? Something here? Or if you in a caloric deficit and I'm like, yeah, you could probably stand to eat a little bit more because you're in a calorie deficit. Again, you're tipping the scales in the favor of the break down side.
That's just, you know, calorie deficit sore or catabolic stimuli. And it's catabolic for muscle to. So, yeah, they're probably situations where we need a little bit more. But how long, how much that's those are really? Let's call them. Fine. Details.
What about is? This also a fine detail? The protein timing. You know, there's, yeah, it's just, it probably one of the most common
questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Should I split my one?
.2 g into point, you know 3.4 grams per kilogram or is there is the is a stimulus and we'll talk more about why proteins stimulus for sure muscle group, you know math. But yeah, you know it does have to be higher or
yeah.
Great question. You know again, I'm drawing as as much from evidence as I can here in a little bit for my sort of own sense of, you know, take this with a grain of sand. I think the way that your body is setup and your muscles in particular prefer to be fed regularly so pulsed, you know, breakfast lunch dinner and a snack or whatever it is. And so when I'm talking to athletes who are the creme de La Creme pro-level Olympic level?
Evil, I get to talk to Mone every now and again and I always say, you know, you guys are clearly like we've we've skimmed off, everybody who is sort of a mere mortal like me. And now we've got these, these Elite specimens and they probably should eat that way. Now, I appreciate that. Sometimes training is difficult for them to do and everything else like that, but I think they could benefit from even distribution, whether it's a huge effect, I think, for most mere mortals.
Not a big deal. I think if you're the top level athlete and you're probably looking to metal or, you know, win this or when that, then maybe some of those small differences. That's the sort of the the last little part that you need to turn the dial. That is the margin of victory at the top level. So we talked about even spacing a protein, I think for most people, it's not that big a deal. There's also the timing with respect to exercise and I lived through
Through that creates, not as big, a deal as we once thought. So it's really about the total amount of protein you're going to get in the day. And then the next one would be, you know, even spacing. And I'd say yep. And then the next one would be sort of protein quality where you know we get into some of the more nuanced talk about protein and then you can dial it down from there. Most people I talk to I just say, you know, do you go to the gym? And they're like, yeah, I'm like how many times they're like well you know once or twice is that maybe
You could go two or three times, that would probably be a much bigger benefit than I need to divide my protein three times across the day.
So, good point. Yeah. What about 65 years and
older? Oh yeah, yeah. I think your, this is where what we call a skewed protein intake in the traditional intake is lowest at breakfast, moderate lunch and then most of it at dinner I think it's probably correct to say that that first at breakfast-time meal.
You could really stand to push the protein intake, a little bit higher. Most people say heart-healthy breakfast whole grains, that sort of thing. And so that's where they focus. When we looked at intakes of older particularly older women, they they consume a ridiculously small amount of protein at breakfast and I think they could handle, you know, some Greek yogurt, we take eggs off the dirty list and we say it's okay to eat an egg, good high quality nutrient.
Source of protein. And then they say cholesterol I'm like, probably not as big, a deal as you've been taught and you know, you're 85, I'm like, have an egg for goodness sake, you know, or glass of milk and that's, you know, most people say, well, there's not much protein and I say you're right, but it's more than the 6 to 8 grams, you know, most of which comes from wheat gluten, which is, you know, it's not a particularly high quality protein that these older folks should probably aim for, and it doesn't necessarily
Necessarily again, have to be enormous amounts. People say what about protein supplements? I'm like very convenient. If you can't do it with food, absolutely? A protein supplements, probably useful but you know, whatever, suits your lifestyle. But I do think that older people particularly, instead of having this skewed distribution could stand to sort of have a more even distribution throughout the day.
Okay? So and maybe we should talk about why?
Protein is such a strong stimulus for sure. Increased muscle protein synthesis. Yeah, what I mean what is it about? Protein the essential amino acids the
yeah yet. So you said it I mean go back to the brick wall analogy. If that's muscle protein, it's made up of 20 different types of bricks. Those are the 20 amino acids that we have nine of which are essential. We need to get them in our diet and in particular, their group of
what are called, Branch chain amino acids, that are three of the nine. And the most potent if you like of the three branch chains is an amino acid called Lucy. And the way I like to explain it to people is that it's kind of like, the, the brick that when it arrives, it turns the process on and I intentionally doing that because I was just like, to remind people, it's like a dimmer switch. So it's not, you know, click click on click off. It's really like your, you know, Lucy and comes along and it begins.
You see the lights begin to come on in the lights, obviously, of the process of making new muscle proteins. So once you have sufficient leucine there, you can turn the switch up as bright as it can go. Once you put more loosing, their you can't go any higher for older people for reasons that were beginning to unravel. Now, I think what happens is now the sensitivity of that dimmer switch. So you the leucine comes and you sort of get this response and a younger person.
You might get that. And so we need more leucine or more branched chains, or more essential amino acids, which translates into more. You need more protein to trigger the whole turning the protein synthetic process on. So it's a pretty nuanced level I think of understanding, but we're beginning to see on when we look at diets that people eat the people who consume higher quality proteins or sufficient lower
Already proteins, which I'm sure we'll get to. It's really about the leucine that they consume particularly for their muscle that that's important.
So I have a question about that, but before we get there, the higher quality, obviously, animal meat is higher in essential amino acids that. Yeah, then plant protein. Yeah. And so our can people that are on a plant protein diet than get sufficient since joining me, amino acids, 22,
To Foster muscle protein synthesis.
Great question. And, you know, this is one area, we chatted a little bit before I came on to say that my understanding and the even the study is that that I've been involved with has changed and you know, so 20 years ago, when I first came to McMaster I'm like it's here's a fundamental truism animal-derived proteins, or higher quality than plant-derived proteins, plant-derived proteins have anti-nutritional fiber.
One phytates, lots of other things that can inhibit protein breakdown enzymes. And, you know, you say that's a big deal, it's going to lower the quality. You're not going to get as many amino acids, essential amino acids, and that's true. But, you know, fast forward 20 years. We've now got processing methods that can lower or change the fiber content. We've got Foods where we've isolated plant proteins, Etc. So we've taken a lot of that out of the equation.
And then everybody says, but the essential amino acid content is lower in plant proteins and is an animal, I don't like you're, you know, essentially you're correct the top of the list and the plant kingdom would, obviously be soy. It's, you know, plant-derived protein and probably the been the Mainstay of 20th and 21st century, vegans or vegetarians, but now we're looking at a variety of plant-based protein sources that are they
Contrived, they're manufactured foods but they're very high quality proteins. They're not something that people need to worry about. In terms of, I'm getting an inferior, quote-unquote source of protein. So I think that the way you can make up for the difference, is you either eat a little more over here in terms of protein, or you go towards supplements or foods that are actually have taken some of the anti-nutritional out. Or
And this has been something that we are keenly aware of and trying to study is that a lot of the prep methods of plant proteins, like beans and legumes, you cook them and cooking actually liberates. A lot of the proteins that makes them more bioavailable and so reduces the anti-nutritional effects. So sprouting, cooking fermentation. All kinds of things that are commonly done with plant-based proteins. Beans legumes, I think are making the
You proteins much more close in quality inside us than we once thought. And so I tend to worry less about protein quality then I once did and I know that probably upsets a lot of people because they're like, well, you used to say and I was like you're right I used to say that but the evidence is evolving and even in our own hands we've been I think I've been surprised actually at how good plant proteins have been in stimulating muscle.
So protein synthesis,
that's really good to know. And I'm going to ask you this because I know people are listening or watching this or going to ask and when you're talking about fiber yeah and the effect of fiber on the know being able to absorb proteins, you're talking about within a plant. You're not like talking about eating your plate of spinach with your stay. Yeah, it's inhibiting. Yeah. That's, that's
different. Yeah. I mean the steak and the spinach still good. Good, mix great. If you enjoy the eat that way, but no, I'm
Talking about an enemy. And here's the other sort of knock on some of the studies that we use to make these General isms, they're fed. People are fed individual foods, and that's really not how we eat. We tend to, you know, you look at a plate and it's got something like this, but when you do that, I think that the point I'm making is the fiber that's intrinsic to the plant or the fruit or whatever it is, is it is inhibiting to some small degree, your absorption of the Protein, that's there. But those
X, again, you, you cook a being or a p and a lot of that goes away. So raw piece and you know if you eat raw piece, okay. But if you cook the peas, there are a lot more digestible and so you know a lot of the studies that we have to look at protein to just ability and the the amino acid scores and there are lots of them but I don't think her as big of a deal as we once thought. Yeah.
Think about the the leucine and going kind of circling back to that. I and I want to get into you know underlying causes of sarcopenia and but before kind of before that we get there, the leucine supplement. Supplementation does come up in my mind and probably in a lot of other people's minds is like can I supplement with leucine and not have to take in so much protein and have a similar effect on muscle protein
synthesis? Yeah, really
Great question. And we have done some studies where we haven't. Well a proof of principle. We supplemented people with leucine and we did find that. It improved their response. Little you know, the caveat statements. First of all, leucine is of all of the 20 amino acids and I know everybody hasn't, you know, done this sort of thing, but leucine is it's extraordinarily bitter so it doesn't taste great. So you need a bit of Food Science to to take that edge off, I think.
From my perspective, that would be sort of a last resort because it's really, you know, you it should always be a food first approach and then maybe a supplement and now you're bringing it down to the individual component. And, you know, you probably get a sense of this from some of the studies that we've seen with individually purified, components of like a tomato and it was oh, it's lycopene, that it's really important. When actually there's things in the whole to me do the Matrix
And other things and lots of bioactive, compounds, we have no idea what they're doing and probably the tomato is better for you than just the lycopene alone. So, you know, that's, that's my might sort of Ethos statement to say, you know, Lucy and supplementation. If you must buyer beware, make sure it comes from a reputable company. The internet is Rife with crummy supplements, and you just need to know where it's coming from. So usually
For third-party testing, I tend to like domestic production. So you know, North America if you can and I'll and then a lot of people say what about branched-chain supplements and I'm like, yeah, that's really interesting. Like they stuck around as a sports supplement for a long, long time. I think the the message is fairly clear. Now that they're largely, I won't say, use less but from useful to use less. They're a lot closer to the use less end, but it's only the leucine out of those three.
Amino acids. That's the important Branch chain amino acids, so they work because of the leucine. So then people say, well, I'm on a high protein diet, I supplement with right way and and I'm taking branched chains and there's a great Instagram meme where I see a guy in a, you know, a pool, it's raining and he's drinking water so it's sort of like that's where the branch chains are. I'm like you're surrounded by good stuff. The branched chains are probably not a big deal.
But for older people, we've done some work and I it's possible. You're going to see products their fortified with a little bit of extra
leucine. Did you absorb leucine like in free form and it doesn't have to be a certain form now,
okay. No, you absorb it in free form. In fact, it's really readily absorbed, the big barrier in all the studies we've ever done is how to mask its taste. So you can imagine given its taste profile. We mix it with
Some sort of citrus and legume. E-excuse me, give me a citrus fruit flavor, and try and sort of blend that sharp bitter Edge into like, oh, it's lemon, it's orange. It's grapefruity, you know, something and that tends to be a good mix, but yeah, I'm not a food scientist pineapple.
Yeah, something like that. He said, 425 for the for older individuals that say that are you know, you know as you mentioned, you know, the when you get older, your satiation like those those hormones are all
All different and the people don't eat as much, right? You're not hungry as much and they certainly don't chew as well. I mean all sorts of things, right solutely. So, if you can get, you know, if you can get someone who's having a hard time, like there's just no way they're going to get .4 g of protein per kilogram body weight. Like the leucine supplementation, may help with that older
person. Yeah, we and we've shown that and I mean, I think it's not just our work, lots of other people, collaborators of mine. Good, friends of mine.
Shown the same thing that if you take even a small protein dose and you add a little bit of extra Lucy, you can make it look as if it's a bigger protein dose. And so you know, our dimmer switch analogy is that you know as here's a small protein do so you get that response. Here's the small protein dose with Lucy and now you get a slightly greater, it was 45 grams, what was it? You know, the per meal. Leucine dose is probably somewhere in the range of sort of three to four grams for an older person. Probably two to three four younger and that's
Just because the younger person is really sensitive to the effects but we can make a younger person when we put a brace on their leg and we get local atrophy there atrophied muscle looks like an older person's response. So the disuse response we think is sort of it's almost a model of premature aging in terms of your muscle. Anyway the difference is a young person does this and they just bounce back and older person does this and now they're down here.
So why what can you talk a little bit about
As I've heard in a red in your Publications and I'm sure others as well, this anabolic resistance to Klein like what? Yeah. Yeah,
it's a great question. I mean II don't think that you can discount in activity with aging, you know, everything is it gets older and you know from earthworms all the way up to humans. We do less as we age. There's no question about that. We have done some studies where we've used step reduction.
Abrupt step reduction as a model of sort of abrupt sudden terrorism where we can make older people much more anabolic Lee resistant as a result of that. So clearly activity is a driver of it at the same time. I think there's probably aspects to do with insulin resistance and it doesn't need to be overt insulin resistance to the degree that you have type 2 diabetes. But maybe you have what we call vascular, insulin resistance. And what this means is that when you turn on insulin, you
Lee open up blood vessels to allow flow to happen. And what we think happens with aging is that response becomes just a little bit less sensitive, you're not insulin resistant from the perspective of blood sugar, but from a protein perspective we think that opening up local capillary and allowing good blood flow. In older people just isn't quite as sensitive. So again people say, wow, you know, what can I do? And the number one answer is to be as physically, active as you can and that maintains the
Is that vascular level sensitivity? As you get older agents going to get you at some point. There's no question. But clearly, as you said, the Cornerstone is to maintain your physical activity levels. Be as active as possible aerobic exercise. Absolutely resistance exercise. It's got to be there.
And what about in terms of how many times a week resistance X? Because you hear about the, you met you mentioned the, you know, there's the 10,000 steps People Are People.
About the 10,000 steps, right? So, I mean, what what's the is there something people can think about? And it's age-dependent is that change. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's great question. I mean, the origins of 10,000 steps is also probably people that where does that come from and you're like, that's a good question. I don't like, I mean, it's a, it's a great round number. I think that's, you know, when you go back to the history of those little pedometers, it was just, you know, that's a good number. It ends probably true. You know, you, the closer you get to around six, seven, eight,
8,000 9,000 10, you start to see health benefits so I'm not going to dismiss that resistance training. It's a little bit more difficult, the guide, most of the guidelines, you look around the world. It's there's a recommendation for two times a week of strengthening activities. My own feeling is that it shouldn't, it should be more than recommended. It should be a de rigueur. Part of the guidelines, like, 150 minutes and I do think two days a week is sort of, that's the buy-in level. I mean, if
Somebody's doing nothing and they do one big change. They do to big change. I think three bigger change for on like I don't know you're probably starting to see the plateau five. I'm like, yes. If it's your thing six you go seven, you're mad. But go for it and it but it's a dose-response like a lot of things, right? 150 minutes is kind of where we tap out a lot of the benefits and then you go from there to say, double and three hundred minutes.
It's and you can squeeze a little bit more out of the cloth, but you've kind of got a lot of the benefits with the first 150.
Let's say you're doing so that's 150 minutes of strength. That's, that's aerobic a brother was right? So then when you, when you're talking about, let's say you were doing the two days a week ever since ring, what's the duration for each of? Those is it.
Here's where we climb inside, the really kind of nuanced things and it's sort of like do we do? We do free weights, we do machines. We do sets, we do reps and everything and this is actually I think one of
The barriers for a lot of people is that the, you know, most people, I say 10,000 steps. They're like walking I can do that. And then you say weightlifting, they're like, oh I hate going to the gym and you're like, okay, well have you ever done a push-up? And they're like, yeah, but I hate push-ups and most people hate push-ups because they were used as a form of punishment. When you were a kid, at least that's my feeling. But you know, you don't need a gym to do resistance workouts, you can do boss.
D weight workouts, just about anywhere you can do like an air squat up and down, and you don't need to wait. But, you know, sets Reps for, you know, my main point is getting to do that at least twice a week. For, let's say, 30 to 45 minutes duration. There's a lot of benefit associated with that. I think three times you can get a little bit more, but it's about making clear that the biggest reduction in Risk bar none.
Is always going from nothing to doing something and not that we should aim at the, you know, the smallest or the lowest bar or anything else like that. But as we mentioned, I was saying before we got on camera, you know, these, these nudges of people that are really sedentary at a population level. If we got everybody to walk for even 10 minutes a day, and then maybe they did, you know, push up. Even if it's the can't do a floor. Push up, let's say a wall. Push up and you know, maybe went
How to walk outside, how good they would feel mental health, physical health, and everything. And the population of facts would be pretty substantial. So I'm good if you know, if you're like me and you like to go to the gym and you like to lift some weights, I don't lift heavy weights anymore. I think that's sort of a diabolical Pursuit but if that's your thing, go for it. But I think it's more about getting to the gym performing a workout with pretty high levels of effort, which is the
I stop prescribing percentages of your maximum lift. I just say Lift until you're pretty fatigued at the end and you should do pretty
well. And when you're lifting or you're doing any type of resistance and or strength training, you are also causing muscle protein breakdown. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But then the mechanical force on the muscles, are increasing protein synthesis and what are you doing? Yeah,
no, that's great. Great.
Explanation. Yeah I mean I think you know how our wall analogy again is to say that actually exercise physical exercise and particularly some forms but weightlifting is a really potent. One turns up the rate at which we're pulling bricks out of the wall you're creating damage. You're creating a stress on the muscle successful adaptation to stress is that you're able to repair that damage and replace those damaged proteins. And that's the synthesis side of things and then you know, clearly what we're aiming for is, you know, so we have damaged
And then we have synthesis but now you've gone up a little bit and then we have damaged synthesis and over time you know it's sort of down up down up down up but the trend is is that you're getting better and better the same with aerobic exercise. I mean, it's you I'd say to people like the exercise is great, but it's in recovery that we that's where all the good stuff happens because we you know, as a result we repair any damage recover from the stress and hopefully recover fully so that
We're the better starting point again, sometimes it's small changes and then but over time you know people say you know, when I first started I was so tired and I'm like yeah it's hard work when you first get started get past month, one month, two months, three months, you know and then now you're six months later, you're like I'm so much stronger and so, you know, etc, etc. It takes time and stress is stress. You have to overcome it but the benefits are
So
does the recovery? I mean, is there a certain? Like, if you're doing this strength training was so you do 30 minutes one day. Like should you take in the next day off matter? Or can you like, do what, two days in a row and then recover is that? Is that just again, these are the sorts of
things, I think, you know, when you become more advanced. So now you're I'm like, okay, I've got three days in the gym a week, I'll got that down, no problem and it becomes, you know, what more can I do to sort of maximize what I'm getting out of.
The workout that I'm doing, most people split say a resistance workout, they'll do they might pair exercises or the rudimentary. The most rudimentary wanted to sort of say there are pushing exercises. So that above your head, there are pulling exercises or bicep curl and then their leg exercises. So, pushing pulling legs and you're working different muscle groups and that's three days a week. It gives you in the muscle has lots of time to recover, some people do it.
Definitely the body building culture gets into your individual body parts. So today is a bicep day. The next days of tricep day, Monday is usually always chest day. You're under the bar, doing a bench, press you work on your legs, you work on your lower legs, you work on, your upper legs? You know, all of those are things that ways of splitting it up. I think, you know, my advice to most people is to say, you can probably break most exercises resistance exercises down.
To some pretty basic ones. You know there is a push from your back. That's a bench press. There's a shoulder press above your head. I'm not a big fan of isolation exercises but you know squatting or a leg press if you don't want to squat is really. You know those are the three sort of if you walked away and remember nothing. Those are great exercises. You don't need to do too much more to be honest with you but you Branch out from there. I do think.
Some people can handle a lot more. I know from my own experience, when I was younger, I could do a heck of a lot more and the recovery came a lot easier. Now, not so much and and the goals are different. My goal now is, you know, has a 20-year Horizon 30 year Horizon. So that's, you know, that's something. I'm like, you know, how long does it take to recover? I'm like well I don't know, I took a day off yesterday. I was
okay. This protein help with recovery. I mean, how much of a role is
For example we talked about loosing. How much does like you know essential amino acids like that activate. Igf-1 does a gf1 playable and muscle repair. Yeah you know, good
question I mean I think is a said you know it's in recovery where all the good stuff happens. Like the workout is putting the stress on the muscles and the bones, the joints etcetera and then the recovery part, the stress is removed and it's like okay now it's repair time recovery time 3 R's rehydrate refuel repair.
So you got to get fluid back in, if you've lost that, it's a primary one, you got to get fuel back in particularly if you know the next day, you're going to do another workout, the repair part, that's where the protein comes in. There's a lot of thoughts that the regenerative process also involves, you know, hormones going up and everything else. And I think for a large part, particularly when you're a an adult, that's a, that's a non-issue. Most of the rest of the restorative process in the
Every process is driven almost exclusively by macronutrients. And so igf-1, I'm like, yeah, needs to be there, but it's not a stimulatory or inhibitory hormone for a pair of recovery.
Hmm. Okay, let's talk a little bit about mechanisms and because there's some there was definitely some surprises and interesting, you know? Yeah findings and when I was reading a lot of the literature including predominately yours,
So what loosing its major role in activating muscle protein synthesis is
through?
I'm tour. Yes, through mtor. Very good.
Hey, yeah. I mean, I'm
tourist one of these, it, you know, it's a highly conserved protein. It's a sort of an integrative Nexus of all kinds of anabolic stim stimuli including resistance exercise. So, or any form of exercise, it's actually running through mtor. Leucine goes through mtor, it's it's dysregulation. Is involved in all kinds of processes including
And lots of other things. So, has a really centrally important role in integrating all of those anabolic signals. There are some thoughts now that there are actually two complexes of mtor one, that's sensitive to nutrients one. That's actually more sensitive to exercise. And, you know, one function is a little bit different than the other. But the ultimate culmination is that the downstream signals after you've stimulated mtor are to turn on protein.
Synthesis and all of the regenerative or anabolic processes to repair any or recover from any stress that's been exposed. So yeah, it's essentially important protein, we study it a lot. We're by no means experts and at their people that are far better at it than I am. So
yeah. So inhibiting. The one like em torque one, which is the nutrient sensitive. Correct complex with something like rapamycin. Yeah food effect.
Muscle protein synthesis, but not because there's also mtor to activity going on if a person is resistance training. Yeah. Maybe does it. What is it? Not as big of a deal or is it still still does?
Yeah, I mean, I think like I said, you know, the benefits of the resistance training through probably through mtor to or like this. You still get the protein synthetic response with them torque one. I mean, that's where the sort of thinner layer of the
Aunt, added stimulation goes on top of resistance training. So as you say, one sensitive to rapamycin, the other one, actually isn't so, you know, the more we uncover with this, the more we realize we probably, you know, 10 years ago, we thought we had it figured out now, we're not even close. And so now we're beginning to understand that mechanical stress from exercise is routed through a different process than nutrient stimulation of protein synthesis. So you know maybe that's the
Underpinning mechanism. Why a lot of people talk about, you know, restricting protein and not wanting to turn on the overly or overly turn on the anabolic side of things and you know, because uncontrolled growth and well you know, it cell level that's cancer. But as their point out to people persistent exercise, also activates mtor on an almost chronic basis if you exercise every day and now we're like, well actually it's signaling through a different process.
So maybe that's why it's beneficial and this one. If it's chronically turned up is not so good.
Yeah, it also goes back to some of the observational data, we were talking about also a couple hours ago whenever it was when you looking at protein intake, specifically, animal protein versus plant protein and animal protein, as you pointed out, is higher in essential amino acids, including leucine. And, you know, so you look at these all-cause mortality and he's cancer-related mortalities and there is
Conflicting data for sure, but there is an overall. Like, there's a lot of studies showing that there's a lower all-cause, mortality in a lower cancer related mortality in people that consume plant proteins. Yeah. However, when you start to look at the largest observational studies that have been done it, those those studies that have looked for any like unhealthy lifestyle factors, confounding factors have found that oh, actually people, that have no unhealthy lifestyle factors. So they're not obese, not sedentary, not
Cooking not excessively drinking alcohol, they have a similar all-cause mortality as a plant-eating person. So you know, again it goes down to that. Okay, well maybe if someone is obese and smoking or sedentary before you start eating a lot of protein and doing and worrying about that. Like, let's get rid of those unhealthy lifestyle factors, right? Let's get Physically. Active, will surely lose some weight? Yes, I'm fat. And then, you know, then things can kind of fall into place,
so I couldn't agree more. I mean,
Thinking sort of the broad checklist and people say, you know, so what are you doing to each? Well and I said well I'm trying to stay at a body weight that's, you know, not excessive, I weigh more now than I did when I was, you know, 13 14. No kidding. I'm more than I did when I was 23 24 but not much more. I'm physically active, I pay attention to what I eat 80% of the time and people say, well what about the other 20%? I said,
That's why I exercise. So I can indulge myself 20% of the time. I don't need a vegan diet. I don't need a vegetarian diet, but I eat less meat particularly red meat than I used to, I eat more fish. I don't need as many, you know, unrefined or excuse me, refined carbohydrates. I don't really have a sweet tooth, so I was kind of Lucky in that way so I don't feel compelled. I'm weak in the presence of chocolate, you know, so but maybe that's my one, indulge.
But I don't smoke never have, I don't drink as much as I used to, you know, all of those things and you're going, check, check, check check, and then people go well, what about intermittent fasting? And I'm like, you know what? And again, it's my, this is the analogy, I love. This is to you dip. The water. Are you dip the cloth in the water? And you know, the first ring is like, you get a lot of water out. I'm like, that's maintaining your body weight. I'm like the second one is physical activity. The third one is watch what you eat. The fourth one is, you know, and then you could add subtle.
Juan's things more on that. But now you're, you know, it's only little drops that are coming out of the cloth. That's where I think a lot of the finer details. The vegan versus, you know, omnivorous diet. If you're judicious about how you plan, your omnivorous diet can make a difference. Yeah. If you're a smoker, that's a great thing to give up because that's a bona fide, a shortened lifespan poor quality of life etcetera. But
Understand the power of addiction and particularly, if you started early, which is when most people take it up, man. It's a tough one to break. So
lose the weight Physically Active. I think, I think what you said is pretty pretty, pretty fair. Yeah. Yeah. The most important thing, some broad strokes, and the little drops it can come out. Yep. Hormones. Yeah. Growth hormones. Yeah, testosterone. I mean, getting to the sex hormones. Yeah, I was quite surprised by, you know, some of some of the data coming out of your
Your lab. Yeah that showed and maybe you can explain it because I'm, you'll explain it better than I do. But, you know, looking at what effect, for example, growth hormone has on muscle protein
synthesis. Yeah. So this, this started and, you know, to give you the origins or the Genesis of this story. We were, we were, I was early in my, my faculty appointment and we were doing these studies where we were infusing people with labeled amino acids to measure the rate of muscle.
18 synthesis. We're measuring these in the incorporation of these amino acids and we had people exercising. These were mostly young men freely admit that we're making a push to do younger women and older women and middle-aged women. Perimenopausal women. So stay tuned. It's coming. And we would send it in for publication and they said you haven't measured you know, testosterone growth hormone and or insulin-like growth factor and they go up after exercise and they're driving this protein synthetic.
Ponce in my training is a biochemist. I'm not actually size physiognomies, I'm a varsity athlete. So, you know the pairing, the to seem logical to me. And I'd actually worked with, you know, some people that were pretty good with steroid biochemistry in my understanding, was that steroid hormones testosterone, that sort of thing. Slid across membranes. Bound to receptor receptor, went into the nucleus, modified the expression of genes, and that takes a long time. That's not a
Transitory, you know, testosterones up. They do this and 15 minutes later its back down and growth hormone, the same thing. So we thought, you know, we need to test this, we either need to show that those hormones are important or they're not. And so that's why we don't think we need to measure them. And it's a journey that we it's taken us, you know, 20 years probably about for PhD students, couple of good postdocs. So it's been a good
One lots of people have chipped in and we've tried very, very hard to show that those those hormones have an anabolic effect and we've never been able to see it. And we've manipulated all kinds of experimental conditions and we just don't see an impact. And I think the most damning evidence against to stas. Tirone is a Big Driver of muscle protein synthesis is to say, you know, if you take men and women and
And agreed like man start out with more muscle mass than women and you resistant, strain them and this is a meta-analysis. Now guy named Brandon Roberts did this one and you resistant. Strain them relative to what they started. With everybody goes up the same amount. Women get the same amount of muscle growth as men do, but they had less muscle to start with because, you know, boys and girls are like this puberty happens, boys, become men, Manish. And that's the
Testosterone surge, but after that, they just sort of they they follow each other. So the Big T, not so important. Now this is where people say but steroids work. I'm like absolutely. And so this is the normal diurnal, variation and testosterone. This is steroids. It's about two to three standard deviations away. And if the person is taking it either orally, or as an injectable, it's up all the time and whereas we're
Talking about transient fluctuations and hormones throughout the day. If you take men and they have a diagnosis of prostate cancer, they're often put on Androgen deprivation therapy. So this, they're taken from a normal testosterone state to a hypogonadism State. And yeah, they lose muscle mass. They, they actually, it's almost a feminizing process for these guys, but it's good news for the prostate tumor, which is a reproductive hormone driven tumor.
And you know, the dirty secret that we're trying to sort of our lab and lots of others are trying to sort of convince and talk to women particularly around menopause is it's not just bone that drops off its muscle to and that's the loss of estrogen mediated stimulation of protein synthesis. So you know, that that's the sort of the testosterone story and I think it's pretty much we can put that one to bed. Now I will say this is there's a lot of people make
A lot of noise and a lot of water about certain supplements, that boost testosterone and do this that and the other. And my I just came from the American College of sports medicine meetings and listen to a great talk, good friend of mine are across and said, you know, this is a case of what's old is new. There have been in my 25 year career now, McMaster probably about two, dozen testosterone boosting supplements that I've seen come
And go and then it seems like we just can't get rid of them like so there's another you know, those two or three hot ones out now and I won't name them. But let's just say, you know, I get DM's on Instagram which one should I take? I'm like save your money like it's why bother like just get to the gym and lift and that tends to upset a lot of people I do think. However, if you go and you look back at you know it was and Rusty and down and resting dial. It was
A Cadets death. It was a hormone precursor that I'm having trouble getting my tongue around here. It was plant based hormones. It was etc, etc. None of these fenugreek. None of these things have worked. It's you again. Look at the some totality of the research, not one study, not one person. Talking about this on an Instagram real, I think you just need to step back and you know Phillips.
Quote, three rules of supplements, taken from a good Mentor of mine, Ron mon, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. If it's too good to be true. It's probably band or you need a big prescription for it. There may be some exceptions is rule number three, but there are very few. So the growth hormone stories, another one and the easiest way I sort of like to try and explain that to people is the lack of growth hormone where
Our young. So, hype old classical hypopituitarism leads to Shorter, stature dwarfism, those individuals have an amount of muscle mass, that's directly proportional to their stature. If you have hyper, pituitary is MM, you're a giant, you're just tall. You don't have excessive muscle mass, you have it directly proportional to your stature. So growth hormone is a
Later stimulator of stature, you know your height. So it's good for bones. It's actually really good for collagen and everybody goes collagen. Your bone is actually about 40% by composition protein, it's not just a stick of chalk, there's a layer of collagenous protein around it, but this may be where collagen has achieved its sort of notoriety, particularly in the supplemental form for athletes. Is it stimulates?
Collagenous tissue synthesis and if you think about it so you take testosterone your muscles, get bigger. They probably get big enough that you can do ridiculous things in terms of lifting really heavy weights, but to the degree that you can tear your muscle right off of a tendon and it happens. And so, the where the growth hormone comes in this is my own personal Theory. It is it stimulates
Collagenous synthesis. And so the tendons become stronger to and laced throughout your muscle or collagenous proteins. So that's where growth hormone is beneficial. So we're in California. I'll invoke the you know, Victor Balco and say you know, you have to get the cream and you have to get the clear and that's the steroid hormones and the growth hormone you need both of them to be a big strong guy but you know both of those hormones are pro anabolic and
Therefore Pro cancer hormones, chronic elevations of those hormones mess with a lot of systems that we just, we're only beginning to understand. So excessive testosterone or high levels, great driver of prostate growth, excessive growth hormone a great driver of lots of different tissues. But its lack. And this is where you've had dr. Long go on the on the show before he shows in certain populations.
And so of dwarves, for example, who have a particular type of dwarfism and lack of growth hormone receptor there actually don't get cancer. So, do we really want to mess with? That system? Is as my question and I think that, you know, us showing that they don't have a particularly huge role. At least, within the normal variation is a lot different than people coming out to the extremes down here. And if you're clinically low, in those hormones, by all
Means, but for most guys, I'd stay away from that stuff.
You have shown that Androgen receptor content increases with resistance training and is correlated with muscle protein synthesis of it, die. I understand that correctly. What do you think, then? Because the Androgen does testosterone also, increase and
receptor. So it probably does a little bit as a sort of a feed-forward mechanism. But I think that there's a little bit of a feedback mechanism, the nature of which I'm not entirely sure. But
That you can only get so much Androgen receptor but you're entirely right. You know as I said the testosterone or other steroid hormones estrogen as well, bind to receptors and those receptors turn on genes and so the content of The receptors maybe we think. Anyway another sub, show them the same thing. The rate-limiting action of where the testosterone probably is having any action if it's having any action at all and the same for estrogen.
So,
okay, so there could be some and maybe other metabolites. Yeah, but binding, yeah, yeah,
we're, we're scratching the surface with the big ones. There's lots of other Downstream hormones that we're not looking at, for sure.
Well, that makes a lot of sense with the extremes, because those were you pretty much answered my questions, which were, you know, you give you inject, you know, people with testosterone and muscle growth goes up, and it's super physiologic. Yeah, with growth hormone though, right? Yeah, absolutely super fragile.
Lately. Yeah. So it's not just so much of the transient increase that you're getting from from the exercise. But this constant like where it's just elevated for like hours and hours and
hours. Yeah. And and you know, it's not like I said, the diurnal range is so ridiculously small as opposed to, you know, where steroids are or where growth hormone Administration is that the comp the comparison of like normal changes, you know, I'm a high testosterone responder or I'm a low-tech
Testosterone or a high growth hormone were, you know, etcetera. It's not the same as talking about somebody who's taking exhaustion as supplemental hormones. They're they're completely different Paradigm. So, you can't invoke this as proof of that. If you like the deficiency and is interesting and I can see the clinical case for treating hypo gonna do men, if they have low testosterone or kids with, you know, classic hypopituitarism to get them to a probably not the
Sure, that they would have if they're completely normal, but certainly not short. Some people choose not to do it, some people just say, no, that's that's, that's how I was born, that's the way it is. I can respect that but at the same time you could make a case the where I differ with some of these sort of exhaustion assault, they call themselves anti-aging. Clinics is that the anti-aging that you get as a result of taking the hormones may be at the expense of overstimulation of anabolic, or cell division,
Vision cancer, Etc to the degree that it's doing you more harm than good. And I think unless it's closely managed you need to be aware of
that. Are you talking about like hormone replacement therapy, what about people that are doing hormone replacement therapy, that are mimicking more, what your physiological levels would be. And
that's, that's the Paradigm. So if this is the normal range of testosterone and most guys, they point out that it's quite right wide, and it is so you can be
This side of it or just this side of it and you're at the low end of normal and bringing you into the normal range at that's clinical treatment. And it's the same for women at menopause, taking supplemental, estrogen to bring themselves back to where they were premenopausal E. I understand that. And but those are closely monitored clinical situations or bringing you, you know, with growth hormone injections, back to here. I think where the differences is, you know, the sort of
Paul called the wild west of these antiaging clinics where people just go take this and there's no monitoring of what happens or it's a physique driven process. And so you know, older guys say look at me now and I'm like that's great. You look great, I hope there's nothing, you know, with your prostate or elsewhere, that's growing that's all
and that again comes down to our lifestyle and physical activity, you know which as you said you 20% you don't you're getting you're eating your
You're bad stuff yet your best. I mean, I indulge. Yeah. A Slice of
Cheesecake is okay. Hot dog at a ball game is okay, in my opinion. But I
mean I'm not you know, especially if you're a physically active person and you're not eating it for every meal every day. Right? I mean so, you know, again, it's it comes down to I think also, you know, back to some of the observational studies where you know, if you are going to do hormone replacement therapy and like maybe there's a reason evolutionary speaking like that our bodies start to make less of those growth factors.
Norman's as we may be because cancer incidence goes up and so if you're not taking care of the other factors that can lead to cancer, like, you know, exercise is one of the best-known ways to lower risk. Absolutely. Many different cancers, including hormonal one. Yes, you know, then then you probably shouldn't be thinking about hormone replacement therapy until you figure out the physical activity part first, right? So, you know, preaching to the choir, but, yeah, great. No, no, I
think it's a really relevant point to say that. As you say the best,
If
it's of exercise, never stop. I mean it's a it's almost embarrassing to talk about how good it is for you. You talked about cancer yet 13 to the 26. Most common types of cancer are lower in people who have higher levels of Leisure Time, physical activity. And so that's not exercise, that's gardening, that's walking. That's like, you know, just the general day-to-day, you know, not, yes. Moving around yet not sitting down all the time. So, you know, and we were talking before the show to say,
Say I have a colleague. I'll give her a shout out. Jen Heist, just wrote a great book on the mental health benefits of exercise and, you know, 15, 20 years ago. If you said, well, you're going to, you can change the size of your hippocampus and your brain with exercise of a bit like, right? You can you get, you know, improvements in mood? You get improvements and depressive symptoms, anxiety, and everything, you almost of the magnitude similar to people, you know, taking Pharmaceutical
Interventions for those things so it's just a win-win-win-win-win. If it's a pill we everybody would be on
it. Absolutely I kind of want to just because it's a good transition into the the sauna the growth hormones because you know, I've been a routine sauna user since about 2009. Yeah long time. Yeah I used to I mean I was used to go every day. All right so I was like really really for me it was like my in grad school. It you know, it
Just, I would go into the sauna before I go into the lab and it really seemed to help with my anxiety and help me. So I started to read about, it was like, something's going on here, right? And I came into this whole growth hormone literature worth. Holy crap. You could do like two or three back-to-back sauna sessions separated by, you know, five or ten minutes of cooling and you could get up to like a 16-fold, transient, yes, elevation and growth hormone. Yes. And so at the time I was thinking, oh, you know, because I had
Used it so much at through periods of injury and I when I usually you lose muscle mass and it was very apparent to me. Yeah, it's objectively speaking. Sure that I was not losing muscle mass and also at the time, you know, as like growth hormone that's it because it's an anabolic hormone, of course. Yeah. It's you know, net protein synthesis will be increased and turns out. I was probably wrong about that part. So yeah, I mean, I think
the way to think about these hormones is
Is is that when we're kids and we're growing unique growth hormone to grow, you igf-1 is a is a pro growth factor, once you're finished your linear and, you know, sort of broad growth. These, these hormones are, are mostly in the case of growth hormone, it's actually a fat mobilizing hormone. That's it. One of its great side effects. If you're taking exoticness growth hormone, you notice, you get leaner, it probably doesn't do much for your muscle.
I do think that there's something to the heat exposure probably outside of growth hormone that, you know, at the local level, we're beginning to appreciate that the stress of the sauna, so it is stressful. It's a thermal stress. But I mean, it's sort of recreates, quote-unquote mimics, some aspects of exercise and we talked about, you know, Hot Yoga is one of these. These great sort of not only relaxing therapeutic, but you're physically active, you're stretching muscles, but you're doing in the heat. So there's a big
Thermal stress and your cardiovascular system, absolutely is like while we're under we're under siege here, you know heart rate goes up everything else like that but our muscles begin to turn on what we call heat shock proteins. So these heat shock proteins are as the name implies they were discovered when we people applied local heating and for a long time, they're like with these proteins do. But what we understand now is that they a chaperone or they act as
Little prote little proteins that bind to other proteins to prevent them from being what we call misfolded and part of the stress response. And so, as the name implies could be stress, due to exercise, could be stressed, due to sickness could be stressed, you know, you name it. Is that more proteins are misfolded. So, and people, you know what about misfolded proteins? And I said, well, you know, a proteins is string of amino acids. And then it sort of bends in on itself.
When it does, you know, all kinds of things and it twists into a shape that is its final shape for it to be useful, but sometimes it doesn't do that and it does something else and let's say it just it doesn't fold into this shape, it should be and stress proteins. Help those proteins maintain and get into that appropriate folded structure. So yes, I think you were getting benefits. I, you know, I don't know that the growth
My mom was a big part of it, but definitely the the heat shock protein response is I think and we're beginning to see more and more that you can alleviate muscle. Atrophy and even in some patient groups with various forms of muscular dystrophy that actually, you know, Heating and exercise could have synergistic benefits. So, again, pulling a away, some of the, the, you know, the covers on this. It's a fascinating area. So
So and the other part and we talked about this to you feel good afterwards and as I sat at the top levels of athletic performance, like the feeling good part is you can't undervalue that. Even if the physiologist go ad is nothing to it. And the athlete says, I feel good, right? And the physiologist goes, okay, well, you do you score three goals last night? So what, who am I get out? You know, I can't argue. Yeah, I feeling good as big as it
is. I'm glad you brought up the heat shock proteins.
That to my credit. I did publish a review. All right, that's all just work you go. Talk to all about the heat shock proteins, responsible for the preventing and you know, much muscle atrophy with. There's been animal studies. But I decided many, you know, many years ago and they've been sort of redone in a sense in some local applied, heat therapy, studies, where they're preventing, you know, after from disuse. Yes. And so, again, back to this elderly population, so I've been able to get my mother in the sauna. Yeah, sauna and
You know, there's only so much you can do with someone who has not spent their entire life, being Physically Active, correct. And I find that it's easier to get her in the sauna. And so, I am mimicking to some degree a little bit of moderate aerobic exercise. Yeah. And then hopefully also getting some heat shock proteins to help with muscle atrophy which she's battle everyone you know as we're getting older battling so it's really nice to hear that. You said that on the on the field depression I'll send you my article, you'll just read it but there's a whole section because there's been a sham controlled trial looking
The effects of heat stress on major depressive disorder, right? There's a sham control. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, basically, it had an antidepressant effect and I'm working. Now I'm collaborating with someone, I'm a small collaborator, I'm the biomarker person. But dr. Ashley Mason, she's at UCSF, she's now running a large more, large randomized, controlled trial on this. And so that's in the works right now, but the thermal stress side of
things, you wonder, you know. So here's exercise, there's thermal stress but there's muscular activity. So you're
Knocking, I'll call it passive thermal stress. I mean, they must cross over and so, right. It be surprising that, you know, one sort of mimics part of what the other does. And I, so
yeah. So I have a question for you because as I was reading some of your reviews, something that came up was you know, looking into the causes of sarcopenia. The many causes yes. But but even down to like looking at the molecular in the muscle tissue level, there was this degradation or pro deo. Stasis lock the
The basically produce cases was messed up? Yes. In type 2 was a type 2 muscle fibers. Yep. And I was wondering if the heat shock proteins and sauna may play a very specific role in countering that type of.
So, if you'd asked me that and here's where, you know, never stop learning begins even three or four weeks ago, I would have to say, you know, I'm not really sure. I had the pleasure of attending the international.
Chemistry of exercise conference in Toronto. So that was an easy one for me to get to just two weeks ago. And there was discussion about this sort of heating aspect of things and heat shock protein response and what it could do is in terms of a protective measure against atrophy and maybe it's important and it was in the context of somebody who was talking about the benefits of exercise for people with various forms of dystrophy. But, you know, let's just say it's
Loss and you know, the heat protein the heat shock protein response as in the role that I described as a chaperone protein but also in other ways that we're probably not understanding as well, could be beneficial and I definitely wouldn't want to dismiss that. I do think that there is enough evidence to be at least interested and raise your eyebrows say, this is reserving of Greater and deeper study. So again, like I said, on
Lastly, three or four weeks ago, I mean like I don't know, but I heard a great exchange between former mentor of mine and a good friend who is an extraordinarily bright individual and they both sort of nodded and thought you know what this is something that there's something going on. So I'm still learning we're all still learning. So yeah Never Say Never.
Yeah I mean if you ever want to you know I got dr. Yari lacking in, he's in eastern Finland, he's a friend of mine and you know,
Got lots of samples and looking for collaborators always. So there's, you know, lots of possibilities there because I would love to sort of connect people and try to, you know, ask the right questions and see if we can answer them. I mean that would be what
it's an interesting one to answer because it seems that the heat shock response is something you can locally, induce, right? It doesn't have to be a sauna so you can heat one leg and not the other leg for any exactly. Like, so these are, these are all ways that things that can of pop in my mind. Like how could
We studied that in the most efficient way possible. Do we need to put people in the sauna. Now, that wouldn't be good, right? And maybe we could do local heating and again, that the cardiovascular effects to do with that and opening up capillaries and so more profusion of the, I mean, there's all kinds of things that are suggested that there could be something going on there. Yeah, for sure.
Well before we wrap this up, this has been a really very interesting talks here at I want to go back to your three. You if it's too good to be true, it probably is.
There was the third one, which is there exceptions and I want to their, here's my, here's my, here's my jam. Go for it. Omega-3 and vitamin D. Okay, I check. Yeah, okay,
so my supplement shelf is small, I live a lot further north than you do. So we get less useful Sunshine definitely in the winter months. Vitamin D is. Yep. Absolutely.
So my question to you being a muscle expert and me, you know,
Guess people would call me an Enthusiast. I you know, I definitely try to follow the science but there's widespread deficiency with vitamin D without yes, you know across North America. So and you know it is steroid hormone is doing similar. Things like testosterone in the sense where is a binding receptor? Going into the cell nucleus and regulating changing? All kinds of genes? Yeah, absolutely. Like five percent of the protein. Encoding human gene, a lot of solutely. So it's not just about bone homeostasis about to the RDA bottle with omega-3. Yes. I've so I'm, I do read a lot of the
Sure. And I certainly don't always get things, right, but I've seen more than one, I've seen a probably a handful of studies. Now looking at omega-3 supplementation and muscle mass, specifically that there's older women, usually an older population, but it helping with. I don't, I think it may be helping prevent some of the atrophy or having within lean muscle mass. Is that a real thing? It's a real thing. I like in our hands, I had a
postdoc Christmas Glory. He left the
Lab, he when he came as a faculty position now at Queen's University. But when he came, he was an omega-3 guy and he said, you know, we need to study more of this in human muscles. So we ran a trial and we ran it actually younger women and then a bunch of people say, why do you want to run it in women? I'm like, nobody ever asks you that why you only read men, right? So we did it in younger women for a number of reasons. There's not much research in younger women and we did actually think that it might be more effective in women than men for reasons. I don't fully
You mentioned older women there as well. We supplemented one group with very high dose, omega-3, fatty acids, and we supplement the other group is sort of a corn oil Placebo. And then we braced one of their legs, for our local disuse, atrophy model for two weeks, and the women on the omega-3 supplement. Saw a really mild disuse, atrophy response and then return to normal much quicker than the other group who saw a much greater a trophic response and didn't get back to normal after 2 weeks.
Of we call it passive re mobilization you remove the brace, you don't actively rehab. You just like go back to all your normal things so it's it's anti catabolic for sure. It's the you can have a nutritional intervention that can affect disuse like that, that's a profound finding. So you can imagine with respect to our disuse you know, catabolic crisis model. Lots more work to be done. That's more Chris's area. He he left on like that.
As man, he
was still doing it, you're doing it. I mean, you know, here's the thing is that you have you, we have this aging population and it is much easier as much as we want to get them to first and foremost, can we get them to do any sort of resistance training? Yes, obviously, yes. But that is a struggle especially for people that are much, much older, you know, getting them to take a pill. Yes. Is one of the easiest things that you can do and you know, I would think they're yeah. Omega-3 is there. I think there's just been
More and more evidence. That it, you know, there's there's many benefits and I have talked about a lot of those. But, you know, I mean, the, the anti-inflammatory resolving inflammation in so many different ways, I mean, there's like the specialized mediating Pro mediating molecules, there's the resolve and the protections the mayor since I mean it's doing. Yeah, you know it isn't just prostaglandins, it's not just, you know, this one, you know, pathway, I mean it's doing a lot of things and yeah, what role does inflammation. So inflammation. I know from reading your work.
In a disease State like cancer or type 2 diabetes or things like this and it can be catabolic. Right? Absolutely. Yet about the low-grade chronic inflammation that unhealthy. Yeah. I think I
think that, you know, the disclaimer is, you know, we've learned a lot about how to make Muscle more anabolic in young individuals and then we've extended that to healthy older individuals. We we we don't have older individuals.
Step 8 in our study, if they're on in the list of medications, is relatively long. So they're probably the healthiest of the older population. And so we're getting we'd like to think that's a true effect of Aging rather than some meds that they're taking. But let me just say that chronic low-grade inflammation and what people call inflam aging is is problematic. It's, it's probably responsible for some of the antibiotic resistance. We talked about
Think so dampening, the inflammation beforehand, could could help you get more anabolic in extreme situations of you know, so I see you or cancer or you know particularly cancer kaksi aware people are, you know they're swimming and inflammatory cytokines and you know covid gave us a little glimpse of this cytokine storm that some people experience and they the prognosis becomes very poor. So we think
Ink a lot of things you know nutritionally can combat muscle disuse but if you have a patient that's on bed rest and in an ICU and there, you know, massively inflamed, you can throw a lot of things nutritionally these people and it's just Dust in the Wind nothing really happens. So, you know, the message is you've got to get inflammation under control before you're able to see the full and robust effect of a lot of the anabolic stimuli that we're talking about. So it is
It is an issue and it's clearly something that people need to think about as they get older. I'm actually of the mind that, you know, the low dose aspirin, that a lot of people are taking to sort of Tamp down, inflammation is probably a good thing. But then also the flip side is to say there is some degree of inflammation that needs to happen. So if you keep chronically suppressing inflammatory responses in you,
Younger people even I don't think you get a full adaptation so some inflammation. Good and necessary. Chronic low-grade inflammation, probably not good, definitely rampant inflammation in all kinds of clinical States. Yeah, that's really going to take the edge off of anything that you do both nutritionally and probably from an exercise perspective
to. Yeah. That and what you said, makes a lot of sense with obviously, you do want an inflammatory response when you're when you need it, right? I mean, when you're a pathogen and that is also where I see why
Omega-3 is one of the best ways to kind of lower the chronic inflammation because it has to do with resolving. The yeah, in so many ways, the resolving of indifferent. It's almost if
you're turning down the burner, right? You're just sort of, you know, it's taken the edge off of that. So now I agree,
right? Yeah, yeah. And then my last supplement to ask you about creatine monohydrate, is that like, is that something? I mean, I've, there's evidence that it seems to be beneficial for muscle growth for brain health, but I like, is there side effects is, they're worried like, is it.
What are your
thoughts on it? Yeah, yeah. So I gained short supplements shelf that's on there for me I don't take it all the time I had periods where I'm doing a lot of work. I try and sort of, you know, ramp up the volume of work that I'm doing and I will add create an in at that time. Now I know a lot of I got friends who will say, why aren't you taking it all the time? And I'm not like I get it. Probably about 40 years old now so is supplements. Go it came and stayed which makes it one of the number three categories. It's
Sounds too good to be true. Its effects are pretty mild on muscle but they're they're they're potent. They last now the brain and the cognitive side of things is, you know, the evidence is growing in that area too. If there were a danger with it, you know that it was having there was a lot of talk about its damaging your kidneys, it's doing, you know, this. You shouldn't, you know, it's a guanidine. Oh, compound etc. Etc.
We've got 40 years worth of data with people on the supplement now and we're not seeing some sort of right? Wave of people who used it, getting various forms of cancer, etc, etc, which you would expect 40 years is enough to see the effect, all the data reviewing it from a safety standpoint has given it to thumbs up. The Adverse Events are rare usually in combination
Because people are taking not only that supplement, that several others. So, you know, pinning. It on Creatine per se has hasn't shown any Credence. So it definitely gets an a grade from the effectiveness standpoint. I think it's good for younger and older people. I'm good with the health or the safety side of things as well. I do think people, if they're going to try it should do it sort of
Actually used to be, you take these big loading Doses and I think most people now good friend of mine, Mark, ternopol ski, neuromuscular physician, has all of his neuromuscular patients on it. So I think that that's a fairly robust endorsement of what it can do for people with compromised muscle function and he recommends that these people just start with a dose of about, you know, 4 to 5 grams of creatine a
day. What is he, what is he using it? Like exactly for well, I mean all these people
have is one of their overriding
No matter what they have, whether it's a mitochondrial myopathy or some sort of dystrophy, condition is muscle weakness. So people do get a little bit of a boost, it may not be, you know, something that you're I would consider worthy. But if you're somebody who's close to that line where you know disability is here inability is here then creating could be what it is. The pushes you over that line. So he's, you know, I think one and again, you can go and read his papers. They're pretty.
T robust studies done in all kinds of populations. And so, yeah, try it. See what you think. Most people tolerate it very well, you don't need a fancy brand of it. The stuff they saw Costco or whatever is just as good as anything else. The monohydrate form is the 12 to aim for. Don't be fooled by creating insert your favorite. Derivative monohydrate is the one that's been most studied and
And so probably the one you want to go for it, for sure
and it's good to know. So you don't actually have to be physically active to reap any benefits from it. And that was the question I had. Yeah. I mean, again thinking of parents and yeah, grandparents and great. I mean that's that's the issue with the ones that are not physically active for that. I mean, there's, there's people that walk their dogs and stuff which is good. That at least gives them some physical activity, but you don't have to be pumping iron and stuff to do, you know, you don't say. We thought about it that way. I'm like, well, I'm not like a
I'm rat. Yeah, I need it. I
mean, yeah. No, I mean I think you know this stuff now with creating that they're uncovering, that makes me think maybe this should be part of my regular routine actually has less to do with the muscle and more to do with the brain in the cognitive performance that it, you know, can it's come back several times now improves and, you know, you mentioned, I'm the director of pace, it has a special place in my heart and the truth is, is that you talk to people in
Is our oldest participant is 104. So I consider him to be the icon of wisdom and and and people talk about when they get older from a health standpoint they want to be a burden and that always when you unpack it is round I don't want for somebody to have to take care of me because my physical capacity has gone down or that my mental capacity has gone down. They all fear that so it's dementia and then it's
Equal in ability to do things and so I say, well, you're here working on the physical ability and but you're working on the dementia to and they said, well what else can I do? I said, well, here's a list of sort of things and by no means of dementia expert, but creating might be something that older people might want to talk about. For
sure, that's awesome. Really appreciate this conversation Stuart and I look forward to continuing to follow your research. You are you're quite active on Twitter. Yeah. So,
You tell people what your twiddle Twitter handle is. What's your handle? Yes, yes,
yeah, I'm MAC can profit Mac k&p rof, the same on on Instagram. I'm much better on Twitter, I just much more comfortable with that rather than a picture of me doing something on Instagram and I do have a Facebook page as well. It's SN p-- dot PhD and that's a professional page. You can find me on Facebook and I'm on LinkedIn as well. So
awesome, well I follow you on Twitter.
ER and there's there's you're tweeting useful things. So I encourage others to follow you as well. And again thank you so much Stewart, pleasure. Yeah, my pleasure look forward to chatting with you again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
A huge, thank you to dr. Phillips for this enlightening and important conversation and a big thank you to you all for listening. If you guys want to get shown us to this episode and an episode timeline with convenient links to jump to the part of the conversation that you want to re-listen to, then make sure you are signed up for my free email newsletter at found my fitness.com forward. Slash newsletter that's newsletter1
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